Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ

 

 

 

[00:00:02] Melissa Fleming

What keeps you awake at night when you are the Secretary-General of the United Nations?

 

[00:00:08] Ant¨®nio Guterres

First of all, it's the enormous suffering because of all the conflicts and injustices that we have. And second, thinking about the future, the two existential threats that we are facing. One existential threat is climate change, and the other is artificial intelligence running away without control.

 

[00:00:35] Melissa Fleming

Ant¨®nio Guterres of Portugal is the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ's ninth Secretary-General. It is a great privilege to have him as my guest this week. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night.

 

[00:00:57] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It's a great pleasure to be with you.

 

[00:00:59] Melissa Fleming

Well, it's a great pleasure to have you here. I've been wanting to have you on the Awake at Night podcast. You know, I started it at Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵHCR [the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ Refugee Agency] and I've been waiting for a long time to have you be on the podcast because I'm sure there's a lot that is keeping you awake at night.

 

[00:01:16] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I must say I sleep relatively well.

 

[00:01:18] Melissa Fleming

You do?

 

[00:01:19] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Yes. I mean, even if I am very worried or very with a lot of anguish for any reason, I usually manage to sleep. So I'm not so many times awake at night.

 

[00:01:33] Melissa Fleming

I'm really glad, but I guess it is a kind of an expression. I'm sure there are lots of concerns in the world, and I'm going to ask you that question later. But I'm going to start by asking you, you're the ninth Secretary-General since the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ was founded, and you're approaching the end of your tenure as SG. But I want to take you back to that moment when you learned that you were appointed Secretary-General. It is perhaps the most complicated diplomatic position in the world. What made you want to take that on?

 

[00:02:07] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Well, it's very simple. The best years of my life, from the professional point of view, were the years as High Commissioner for Refugees. Because contrary to the Secretary-General of the United Nations that the powers of the SG are the biggest bluff in international relations, the High Commissioner of Refugees has real power to intervene because he can change the budget. He can take decisions. He can create positions. He can send people anywhere in the world. And he can go himself at any moment to the most remote places in the world.

And then it was a period in which I was confronted with suffering in terrible ways but knowing that I could go there and make a difference, that I could go there and help people survive or help people get an education or help people be rescued from hunger. And that I could have the instruments, both mobilizing our colleagues or using our financial resources, to address the needs of those people. It was an incredible job, an incredible experience. I was such a privileged man to be able to do that. But the truth is that looking at those tragedies, the solution was not a humanitarian solution. It was very important to rescue them. But more important is to avoid that so many people are displaced, that so many people die in conflict, that so many people die of hunger.

And this requires an intervention at another level, at a political level. And to try to mobilize the international community in order to re-establish the conditions of peace and security that allow communities to live in normal conditions, and that ends this horrible refugee situation we are witnessing today. I had already done that kind of intervention in my own country, so that chapter of my life was finished. I thought the best place to be able to try to be useful in this context was the United Nations.

 

[00:04:39] Melissa Fleming

What was it that you most wanted to achieve as Secretary-General?

 

[00:04:43] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Well, I think the most important is to help prevent conflicts. But at the same time, we live in a world that is deeply unfair, where inequalities are dramatic. And it is that level of inequality that is largely responsible for many of the conflicts, for many of the situations of instability we have in the world. And again... And this is a concern that I have since I was a student. I mean, we need to do everything we can in order to fight inequality, in order to create equal opportunities for everybody everywhere.

And this requires some in-depth reforms in the United Nations system, in the Bretton Woods institutions, in the different rules that are the basis of how economies and finance work in the world. And so, I believe that in the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ I should be concerned, strongly concerned with peace and security, but recognizing that you have no peace if you have no development, if you do not fight inequality. And you have no peace if human rights are not respected.

And it was the possibility of combining these three concerns, the concerns with people suffering because of war, but the concerns of people suffering because of poverty and hunger, and the implications that this has for the eruption of conflicts. And the concerns that if human rights are not respected, if fundamental freedoms are respected, then we'll inevitably have a world of instability and a world of oppression and a world of conflict.

 

 

[00:06:53] Melissa Fleming

Well, indeed, I know when you came in you had a vision for what you could do that touched on all of those areas, the three pillars of the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ. And yet, you also entered at a different geopolitical time. Do you think that it's been more difficult for you than your predecessors?

 

[00:07:13] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I think the present times are probably the most complex of the recent past. You have not only deep geopolitical divides, but you have also because the Security Council has been practically paralyzed in relation to the most important conflicts that we face, we have a sense of impunity. And many... Not only the big powers. Many powers of average dimension feel that they can do whatever they want inside their country or with the neighbours because there will be no punishment. Because the divides among the superpowers will not allow any kind of intervention to re-establish peace or to make sure there is accountability for the crimes that are committed.

And this is creating this multiplication of conflicts everywhere and conflicts in which you have not only the parties to the conflict, but you have a lot of countries around that interfere. You have a lot of spoilers. Look at Sudan. How many of the neighbours of Sudan in Africa and in the Gulf are intervening in Sudan and making it extremely difficult to make the Sudanese make peace between themselves? Or if you look at Libya or the DRC, you see this permanent sense that any country can do whatever it wants. Invading another country. Dramatically oppressing minority communities within the country and creating conditions sometimes for a civil war. And they think they can do that because they know that nothing will happen to them because the instruments that we have and that are under the aegis of the Security Council are not being used because the geopolitical divides divide the Council.

 

[00:09:22] Melissa Fleming

Is it frustrating to see this kind of lip service to international law and the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ Charter?

 

[00:09:28] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Extremely frustrating. A world without international law is a world of chaos. I mean, imagine a country without laws. And imagine what would happen in that country. That's exactly the risks that we have today with the deterioration that we witness in relation to the commitment that countries should have to respect international law, international humanitarian law. Look at the way civilians are terribly sacrificed in conflict. The wars that we remember of the past were wars essentially between armies. Now the wars are wars in which armies kill civilians. And this is something totally unacceptable.

 

[00:10:21] Melissa Fleming

Is it...? I mean, is there anything about your past growing up in Portugal under a dictatorship that has spurred your interest in really pressing for an international rules-based order, for democracy, for human rights?

 

 

[00:10:38] Ant¨®nio Guterres

There are two dimensions. First, my experience as a student, as a volunteer in the slums of Lisbon. And even the fact that when I was very young, my grandparents lived in a rural area 300 kilometres from Lisbon, but I would spend large periods with my grandparents until I was six, I went to school. And I was in the village the only one that had shoes of the kids of my age. And so I had the experience of what poverty and inequality means being myself in a privileged position. And then of course, the work in the slums of Lisbon as a volunteer when I was a student, and to see the misery that existed.

And so there was this conscience that I am extremely privileged. And according to the parable of the talents, that if God has given me talents, and not now talents in the sense of capacities, but the old Roman coin. If God has given me so many things, it's my duty to do everything I can to put that at the service of those that did not enjoy the same privileges.

And the second was the dictatorship. And of course, the dictatorship made me understand, with the colonial war, which made me understand the importance of peace on one hand and the importance of democracy on the other hand.

 

[00:12:17] Melissa Fleming

I believe your service in the slums was part of a Catholic youth group.

 

[00:12:24] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I was part of a Catholic youth group at the time.

 

[00:12:27] Melissa Fleming

So your faith and your family's faith inspired you to help others?

 

[00:12:32] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It was one of the components, yes.

 

[00:12:38] Melissa Fleming

Okay. Was that the moment when you knew you wanted to dedicate your life to public service?

 

[00:12:43] Ant¨®nio Guterres

No, I intended to be a researcher in physics when I was a high school student. That was my dream. And then I went to university, to the best Portuguese university to teach physics. And it was the intellectual passion of my life. But the shock of the work in the slums of Lisbon made me think seriously, is this what my country needs more at the present moment? And that made me shift into politics because I felt that this would be the way to try to change things in a good direction. Then I had the enormous, enormous privilege that a revolution took place. And all of a sudden, being still very young, I had all the opportunities created by the fact that when there is a revolution, there are a lot of opportunities for those that are there.

 

 

[00:13:47] Melissa Fleming

Where were you during the revolution? Were you in Lisbon?

 

[00:13:51] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I was in Lisbon, yes.

 

[00:13:52] Melissa Fleming

What did you witness?

 

[00:13:54] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Well, we heard the radio signals. And then early in morning it was clear that the revolution was taking place. There was news about it. And I went to a newspaper of which I had been one of the founders. I mean, founded in the sense that when the newspaper was created, I had a small share in it. And I spent the day there. Because there we had information about everything that was happening in the city. And so I lived moment by moment the 25th of April, the Carnation Revolution.

 

[00:14:32] Melissa Fleming

How did you feel?

 

[00:14:34] Ant¨®nio Guterres

You can't imagine what it is. Because first it was a military coup, but then the people came out to the streets, and it became a popular revolution, and it became something that galvanized the whole country.

 

[00:14:50] Melissa Fleming

It was called the Carnation Revolution.

 

[00:14:52] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Carnation, yes. Because remember it's the famous photo of a soldier with a carnation inside the weapon. And that photo with a child at his side became the symbol of the revolution.

 

[00:15:07] Melissa Fleming

Which meant that it wasn't going to be violent and...

 

[00:15:10] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It was not violent, and nobody died because of the military action that day. There were two people killed by the secret police when the secret police were surrounded by people and a crazy guy shot. It was kind of a desperate thing. So two people died in that situation. But the revolution itself was entirely peaceful.

 

[00:15:32] Melissa Fleming

And for you, it was important that this revolution turned into a democracy.

 

[00:15:37] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Yes, and I had the chance also to belong to a political party that was crucial in making sure that democracy would prevail. It was not obvious. It was the Cold War. There was clearly an attempt of the communists to take power, and together with some radical sectors of the armed forces. And we did a lot to mobilize the people in order to defend democracy, and these were fantastic moments.

 

 

[00:16:10] Melissa Fleming

And what was your platform? It was the socialists. What were you...?

 

[00:16:13] Ant¨®nio Guterres

So the demonstrations, and there were many demonstrations with tens of thousands of people in defense of democracy, many of them were organized by me. And that was an experience I will never forget.

 

[00:16:25] Melissa Fleming

Sometimes this word "socialism" is taken in different ways. What did the Socialist Party stand for then, and what was it promising to deliver?

 

[00:16:34] Ant¨®nio Guterres

When the Socialist Party was born, it was an intellectual party in the clandestine moments before. It has grown enormously because it became the symbol of democracy and the main force that could avoid a new dictatorship, namely a communist-oriented dictatorship. Which transformed the Socialist Party at the time [into] a kind of a catch-all party in which the ideology was less important. The commitment to maintain democracy and to decolonization was the mobilizing factor more than social and economic policies and things of the sort.

When I had to come to government, we increased enormously the budget of education. We created the minimum income for the Portuguese families to eliminate extreme poverty. But not only the Portuguese, the residents. We completely changed the migration policy. We legalized all the migrants that were in Portugal. 400,000 people in a country of 10 million were legalized because before they were in a kind of limbo situation. And we did in creating conditions for more equality and for eradication of poverty and for investment in education. And in science, in culture, and in all other aspects that are essential to enrich the life of people.

But it was essentially a social democratic approach. We kept part of the financial sector in the hands of the state, because that was important. But we privatized most of the productive sectors in which it doesn't make any sense to have the state managing them. So, this combination has allowed us to dramatically increase social expenditure without increasing budget deficits.

 

 

[00:18:37] Melissa Fleming

And this was at the time when you were Prime Minister. You mentioned colonialism. What did that time mean for you, being able to be Prime Minister at a time when you were able to see the independence of so many countries that were once colonies? 

 

[00:18:55] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It was a strange form of decolonization because the decolonization was done because of a revolution that was made by the army because the army no longer accepted to go on doing a colonial war without a political solution. And so this created a special relationship between the Portuguese army and the liberation movements that were fighting each other and all of a sudden saw themselves on the same side - the side that wanted democracy in Portugal and independence for the colonies.

And this has created... I mean, having no doubts about what colonialism means, and I don't forget the role of Portugal in the transatlantic slave trade. And I don't forget the horrible violence in the colonial war. And I don't forget all those things. It's important to recognize them. Sometimes people tend to forget those negative aspects in our history. But the truth is that that created this kind of complicity between the Portuguese army and the liberation movements that had fought themselves and all of a sudden saw themselves on the same side.

That allowed us, when I was in government, together with the former colonies and Brazil, to create the community of the Portuguese-speaking countries, which was a great moment of reconciliation of all these peoples. And this was something that I also do not forget. And I have to say that one thing that makes me very emotional when I visit Angola or when I visit Cabo Verde is knowing that I come from their former colonial power, and that they have suffered a lot because of colonialism, they can have an extremely affectionate relationship, and I always feel at home, and always treated with a lot of sympathy. That makes me be, as I said, very grateful and very emotional.

 

[00:20:58] Melissa Fleming

Didn't you get a nationality from Timor-Leste?

 

[00:21:03] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It's true. The parliament of Timor-Leste has made a decree that allows me to... I have a passport of Timor-Leste. And I'm very happy with that because if there is something that was one of the main objectives, if not the main objective of the foreign policy of Portugal when I was in government, was to reach the self-determination of Timor-Leste. And I believe we played an important role to support the Timorese people in that almost unbelievable change. Ten years before, if you would ask people if there was any chance of Timor-Leste becoming independent, everybody would say, 'No, there is no chance.' But together with the Timorese we did it.

 

 

[00:21:50] Melissa Fleming

During your time as Prime Minister it was also a very challenging time for you personally, because your wife, I think her nickname was Zizas...

 

[00:22:02] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Zizas. Yes.

 

[00:22:02] Melissa Fleming

Who was the mother also of your children - Pedro and Mariana. She was very ill. Can you tell me about her and what happened?

 

[00:22:09] Ant¨®nio Guterres

No, she was a fantastic person, a psychoanalyst. And I learned enormously with her. And a great companion during our times of fighting for democracy in Portugal, and then in all my life. And simultaneously an extraordinary professional as a psychoanalyst. And unfortunately, she had a very long, complex, and painful disease. And she lived it with enormous resilience, enormous courage, enormous determination. And it unfortunately ended tragically with a failed last intervention.

 

[00:23:01] Melissa Fleming

And this was in London. I know that when I've traveled with you in London, you always get a bit sad.

 

[00:23:07] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Yeah.

 

[00:23:09] Melissa Fleming

Because it reminds you of...

 

[00:23:11] Ant¨®nio Guterres

That's true. Whenever I go to London, I'll remember. She was six months in London before a liver transplant, before she took out the colon, then she had a liver transplant, and finally she had the last surgical intervention that turned wrong. But it's impossible to go to London and not to feel what we have suffered there.

 

[00:23:39] Melissa Fleming

It must have been so tough for your children.

 

[00:23:43] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Yes, it was. Especially my daughter, who was 13 at the time.

 

[00:23:49] Melissa Fleming

And you were Prime Minister at the time and going back and forth. So also to be able to juggle both that tragedy as well as maintaining your work. This was during your first time as Prime Minister or during the second?

 

[00:24:09] Ant¨®nio Guterres

First mandate.

 

[00:24:10] Melissa Fleming

It was during the first mandate.

 

[00:24:14] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Yeah. My wife passed away in 1998.

 

[00:24:15] Melissa Fleming

So you are elected as Prime Minister for a second time.

 

[00:24:18] Ant¨®nio Guterres

No, the second time was in 1999, 2000. I don't remember very well.

 

[00:24:23] Melissa Fleming

You once described it as a mistake that you ran for a second time.

 

[00:24:29] Ant¨®nio Guterres

No, it was not a mistake that I went for a second time and there were things that needed to be done. We had the Portuguese presidency of the European Union. That was something that I'm very happy that I could do. But we had a situation of paralysis in Parliament because the government opposition had exactly the same number of MPs. So it was impossible to approve anything in favour or against the government, which created a situation of paralysis. At a certain moment, I decided that it was better to interrupt that cycle, to resign, ask for new elections, and also give an opportunity to a new leader to come. Because we all need to understand that nothing should be eternal and that we need to open the way for others in all circumstances of our life.

 

[00:25:30] Melissa Fleming

There's a part of you that I learned about over the years that probably most people don't know, and that you really love art and culture, music, and going to museums. And I'm wondering if part of this had to do with your second wife, who was Minister of Culture. I don't exactly know the exact title of the position.

 

[00:25:55] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Secretary of State.

 

[00:26:01] Melissa Fleming

For Culture in Lisbon and is of course...

 

[00:26:01] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It's something that comes from behind. My first wife was also very interested in cultural questions. But indeed, in relation to culture, I learned a lot with Catarina. She was Secretary of State for Culture. And later she became Deputy Mayor of Lisbon for Culture, where she did a fantastic job during 12 years and really transformed largely the cultural life of Lisbon.

 

[00:26:30] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned before that you were in this bit of limbo. You were no longer Prime Minister. And then soon there was this opportunity to become High Commissioner for Refugees. Who convinced you...?

 

[00:26:43] Ant¨®nio Guterres

After the political cycle, I said, maybe I should try to do again something from a humanitarian perspective, not at the national level, but at the international level. And that was... There was this opportunity because all of a sudden there was a vacancy. I didn't even notice the vacancy. It was Moratinos, the then Minister of Foreign Affairs of Spain, that told me, 'Look, Ant¨®nio. You should apply for High Commissioner for Refugees because we have a candidate, but we are ready to support you.' And I thought twice about it. And I said that is exactly the kind of thing I would like to do. And then I applied. And happily I was chosen.  

 

[00:27:28] Melissa Fleming

And in that role, you traveled the world. You were in war zones and refugee camps and capitals in countries that were hosting, you know, thousands and thousands of refugees. Is there a place or a person that you can't get out of your head?

 

[00:27:49] Ant¨®nio Guterres

The situation that probably has impressed me more was with a young refugee from South Sudan. As soon as I started my function as High Commissioner, the first thing I did was to go to Uganda to see South Sudanese refugees. And then we worked a lot for the return of refugees from Uganda to South Sudan. And I even accompanied one of these groups in a truck crossing the border and it was a fantastic experience when those refugees saw their families. Moments that we can never forget.

 

 

But one day I was in South Sudan, and we were in a food distribution operation with WFP [World Food Programme] in an area that was remote. And the food was coming by plane, but we had people on the ground and I visited it. And all of a sudden, a young man came to see me and said, 'Look. I was a refugee in Uganda, and you were there the day I left to South Sudan. And now I'm again displaced. I had again to flee my village, to flee my family.' And this was really a terrible thing. I mean, how can someone be a refugee twice in his or her life because of the minimum interest for the people that the leaders of South Sudan had and, unfortunately, they still have?

 

[00:29:43] Melissa Fleming

I was actually with you on that trip. I remember it very well. It is something that you experienced over and over again. Refugees stuck in limbo, unable to go home. You focused on a kind of humanitarian diplomacy, and you not only visited places, listened to refugee stories, but also met with the leaders of countries that were hosting them. Many were in Muslim countries. And I remember you studying the Quran. You used it as a kind of diplomatic tool. You're a practicing Catholic. Why did you do that?

 

[00:30:23] Ant¨®nio Guterres

In my first visit to Iran, Iran had a large number of Afghan refugees. And when Ahmadinejad was elected, there was a certain concern that he might expel the Afghan refugees. And I thought it was my duty to go to Iran to try to avoid it. So, I went to Iran, and I was received the first meeting by the Minister of Interior, who was a cleric. And the Minister of Interior started the meeting, and during half an hour he bashed the United States. He bashed the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ. He bashed the international community for not supporting Iran. And I was listening.

And then after saying all terrible things, including about the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ, he said, 'Well, but I know why you are here. You are here because you are afraid that we will kick out the Afghan refugees. But I can tell you something. We will never do it because God tells us to protect them.' And I said, 'Oh, if God tells you, I have nothing else to say. Please do what God tells you to do. And I'm very happy because that was exactly my objective.' But then I had curiosity to know what would that mean. And indeed, in the Quran, in the Holy Quran, there is clearly an indication that people fleeing persecution should be protected.

And then with the principles of non-refoulement, people should not be sent back to places where they could be persecuted, with the protection granted to people, to their families, to their property. The civilian character of asylum, the Al-Musta'min, the one that seeks protection, should not carry weapons. I mean, it was very interesting to see that in the Quran on the one hand and in the Hadith, the tradition of the Prophet on the other hand, all the norms that are today in international refugee law were there. And so we invited a law professor, he was the dean of the Cairo University, to write a book comparing the modern refugee law with the Islamic law. And it was amazing. And we used it many times.

 

[00:33:00] Melissa Fleming

When the book came out, I remember you were invited on all kinds of talk shows, on news programmes.

 

[00:33:06] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Talking to some leaders, it was useful to say, 'Look, I'm not asking you to do anything except what your religion tells you to do.' It was also a moment in which I learned to have... Because we always have a vision that is distorted about other religions, no? Because we are educated in a context. And indeed that allowed me to have a much bigger respect by Islam.

 

[00:33:35] Melissa Fleming

They were very surprised often that you had taken the time to learn about their religion. And you always asked to go to the mosque.

 

[00:33:43] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I remember there's a story I cannot avoid telling. I was in T¨¹rkiye and we had a meeting with the ministers of the different countries that had refugees and they were all Muslim. And then the Turkish minister Davuto?lu, that we became friends, he was a religious man. And when there was a time for the prayer, he said, 'Well, why don't we go and have prayer with the Syrian refugees in the small mosque that had been built?' And I said immediately, 'Of course, I'll go with you.' And the other ministers that were Muslims stayed. That's how I went with the Turkish minister and participated, of course, in the prayer, in a position of respect, obviously. But this is something I will also never forget.

 

[00:34:44] Melissa Fleming

From Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵHCR you traveled the world again as Secretary-General.

 

[00:34:49] Ant¨®nio Guterres

But in a less interesting way. Now, it's mostly diplomatic activity. I try to go as much as possible to the field when I can. I went to Haiti very recently, and I visited again an IDP settlement where people live in horrible circumstances. So, whenever I can, I try to not only do the diplomatic activities of a visit to a country, but to try to see and express my solidarity with people that suffer in different circumstances, many times refugees or displaced people. But of course, unfortunately, that is much less frequent. And it's much more conferences and meetings with the heads of state, heads of government, ministers, which is fine. But I mean, it's... There is not the same passion. There is not the same deep feeling. It is more a professional thing that we try to do in the best possible way.

And because the things we do are noble and the things Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ does are noble. And to fight for international law is noble. To fight for the reform of the international financial architecture to have more equality in the world is noble. To fight against climate change is noble. To try to have artificial intelligence with risks controlled and put at the service of humankind is noble. So, all this... I'm happy. I'm privileged again to be able to fight for things that are noble, that correspond to justice, correspond to what is good. But at the same time it's much more bureaucratic in the management and much less emotional in the activities on the ground.

 

 

[00:36:59] Melissa Fleming

What are you most proud of your time in office?

 

[00:37:05] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I don't think I need to be proud of anything. I mean, I've been doing what I can in the best possible way. I mean, as I said, I was privileged all my life. So my duty is to serve and to serve in the most possible way. And not to try to, I mean put any kind of a crown like the Romans for anything. It doesn't make sense. We move ahead when we do something good. We move ahead and try to do more good things, but we should never be in a contemplation of past false glories.

 

[00:37:50] Melissa Fleming

Then I won't ask you the next question, which was what regrets do you have?

 

[00:37:56] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Many, many, many regrets that I was not able to do more in circumstances where unfortunately in the majority of the situations I couldn't do more because it was not possible to do more. But maybe in some circumstances I could have been able to do better if I had thought in a different way or if I had had a better evaluation of situations.

 

[00:38:23] Melissa Fleming

In 2020, the World Jewish Congress awarded you the Theodor Herzl Prize, calling you a true and devoted friend of the Jewish people and the state of Israel. After October 7th, you were declared persona non grata for criticizing Israel's response. Do you feel misunderstood?

 

[00:38:44] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Not after October 7th, because after October 7th I expressed my deep solidarity with the Israeli people and I condemned the brutality of the Hamas attacks with total determination. And this was absolutely horrible and intolerable. But then there was the operation in Gaza. And I felt that that operation in Gaza was also totally unacceptable in the way it was conducted. This continuous killing of civilians in those horrible circumstances. The destruction of complete areas with people laying under the rubble. All these things impressed me deeply and I felt it was my duty also to condemn them. And that was not well accepted by those that were acting in this way. But I think our duty is not to have double standards.

 

[00:39:50] Melissa Fleming

And yet, at the time, you were also receiving many of the hostages. And you also recalled that as Prime Minister in Portugal that you had done something to reverse also some very difficult things that happened.

 

[00:40:08] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I was always totally committed to fight anti-Semitism. And I have a lot of admiration for the Jewish people for their contribution in history to the world's civilization. I think this should be recognized. The fact that I am in total disagreement with the government of Israel, with what the government of Israel is doing at the present moment, doesn't mean that I have the same feeling about the Jewish people. On the contrary, the Jewish people were persecuted in terrible ways since more than 2,000 years and culminating in the Holocaust. That is the most horrible moment in the history of humankind.

And so I always felt that it was my duty to do my best in relation to anti-Semitism and one of the horrible things that my country did was the expulsion of the Jews. Horrible. It was a crime making people suffer tremendously, but also stupid because that community would have contributed to the development of my country. And we have lost that with that complete crazy feeling of anti-Semitism that was totally intolerable. And so when I came to government, when we had the position of power, we decided that symbolically it was important to revoke the edict of expulsion. And I went to the Portuguese Synagogue of Amsterdam that, by the way, is one of the most beautiful religious buildings in the world. It's called Portuguese Synagogue because there were many of the Jews that were there in that synagogue had their origin in Portugal. Spinoza, of course, is probably the most well-known. And I remember depositing there our decision.

And then these went on. These policies went on. And there was a decision in which my party was strongly involved. I had already handed my functions, but it was in line with what we had established. And all the Jews that are descendants of Jewish people that were expelled have the right to regain Portuguese nationality. And there are tens of thousands, tens of thousands of new Portuguese citizens that benefited from that very just measure to grant them Portuguese citizenship as their great-great-great grandparents were expelled from Portugal in an absolutely intolerable way.

 

[00:43:22] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned at the beginning of our interview that nothing keeps you awake at night, but rhetorically speaking, what worries you most? What keeps you awake at night when you think of the world and the state of the world?

 

[00:43:34] Ant¨®nio Guterres

First of all, it's the enormous suffering because of all the conflicts and injustices that we have. And second, thinking about the future, the two existential threats that we are facing. One existential threat is climate change. And the other is artificial intelligence running away without control. And the need to reverse climate change and the need to make sure that artificial intelligence becomes a force for good and becomes something that is under human control is absolutely essential. And by the way, you have been fighting a lot for information integrity. And we know how much artificial intelligence can do to ruin information integrity and to ruin the lives of people.

 

[00:44:33] Melissa Fleming

A couple of years ago, you wrote a letter in Time magazine, and it was to your great-great-granddaughter. And you apologized for your generation's failure to deal with the climate crisis. Is this personal for you?

 

 

[00:44:46] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It is. It is because I'm seeing the destruction of the planet and I'm seeing the increase of the levels of suffering of people in some of the areas of the world that are more devastated by climate change. And by the way, people and countries that have not contributed to climate change in a meaningful way. Look at the droughts in Africa. Look at the storms, the hurricanes in the small islands. Look at the rising sea level that is threatening some countries to simply cease to exist. Climate change is becoming a source of suffering to those that have not contributed to it and a source of enrichment to those who are the main responsible, the most important responsible for climate change.

 

[00:45:45] Melissa Fleming

What would you say to them?

 

[00:45:45] Ant¨®nio Guterres

I say to them, for instance, to the fossil fuel industry, 'It's time for you to assume the leadership of the transition from fossil fuels to renewables and to bet in that transition. And you will remain prosperous, but you'll do it for good.'

 

[00:46:05] Melissa Fleming

Is there anything you're hopeful about?

 

[00:46:07] Ant¨®nio Guterres

Well, I'm hopeful about people.

 

[00:46:16] Melissa Fleming

People?

 

[00:46:16] Ant¨®nio Guterres

People. We are in an organization that is called "We the Peoples" for some reason.

 

 

[00:46:21] Melissa Fleming

Secretary-General, thank you so much for coming on Awake at Night.

 

[00:46:25] Ant¨®nio Guterres

It was an enormous pleasure. Thank you very much.

 

[00:46:31] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the Ä¢¹½ÊÓƵ: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.